Business AND Poetry with Nadir Godrej

Ilham Kadri: Today, I'm delighted to welcome Nadir Godrej to the AND is the Future podcast. Nadir is a chemical engineer and a great sustainable business leader. He's the chairman of Godrej Industries, one of India's biggest and most well known businesses, and the Chairman of Godrej Agrovet. But that's not all. Nadir also has a flair for language and he is a published poet. In fact, if you invite him to give a talk, he may just write a poem instead. Nadir, thank you so much for joining me today.

Nadir Godrej: Thank you for inviting me, Ilham.

Childhood and great influences in his life

Ilham Kadri: Now, Nadir, I always love to start by understanding what motivates my guests. I believe you grew up in Mumbai?

Nadir Godrej: That's right, Ilham. I grew up in Mumbai. I spent all my life in Mumbai, except for six years studying in America, where I studied chemical engineering at MIT and Stanford. And then I did my MBA at Harvard Business School. And after that, I returned back to India.

Ilham Kadri: So, what were some of the influences that sparked your many interests, including business, chemistry, engineering, your love for literature and poetry?

Nadir Godrej: Right. So, my father, my mother, and my maternal grandmother, are the reason for the varied interests, and I will share extracts of my poems that explain this. And I also want to credit two of my professors at MIT. One, Professor Powers asked me to study biology. He told me to read Double Helix, and way back in the 70s, he asked me to study biochemistry. And another professor, Professor Baddour, the head of the department, asked me to write a paper on carbon dioxide levels in the atmosphere way back in the 1970s.

Ilham Kadri: Ahead of time.

Nadir Godrej: I'll start off by talking about my father. 
My father partnered me in life
In times of joy and times of strife.
He taught me from my earliest days
To learn in most unusual ways.
A learned man he always was
And I say this not just because 
He proudly claimed a PhD.
There was much more as you will see.
Strange relations he could spot
By linking each and every dot.
In science he was a real king
But his bat he'd readily swing
At many subjects under the sun,
In ways that were so much fun.
History, Geography, Linguistics
And free market economics
Were subjects that he would relish
And all of these he would embellish
With anecdotes that linked them well.
And at an early age I could tell
That linking subjects helps you learn.
Today I know it helps you earn! 
The years he spent in Germany
Were a lasting legacy.
And even native speakers found
His German was very sound.
And Austria then asked him to be
Their nation's honorary CG.
One thing I found very nice 
Papa was always most precise.
We all recall that common sight –
His Mercedes with the reading light,
The trip he took around the site
Ensuring everything was right.
He always fought dirt and grime.
Came on time and left on time.
Enjoyed his work, enjoyed his play
Watched that movie saw this play.
And classical music warmed his heart
Before dinner the gramophone would start.

And this is now about my mother and grandmother.

A hundred years ago today
My mother started on her way.
But to understand her life
As mother, teacher, perfect wife
Her parents are the starting gate,
The major part of her fate.
My granny (Mamma) was named Shirin,
Was always calm and never mean. 
Her name in Persian just meant sweet
Quite apt for such a dulcet treat.
A British teacher in her school
Who sized her well, she was no fool,
Quite cleverly tweaked the spelling
To Serene and there's no telling
If character led to the name
Or vice versa, all the same,
Serene indeed was stately, calm,
For weary souls a soothing balm!
A freedom fighter for the nation
And poet for the cause of liberation.
With great verve she would recite.
I still recall that glorious sight.
A love of literature was kindled there
A love that Mother would also share.
She also sometimes took to verse,
For greeting cards that were terse.
But then the art that brought her glory
Was a different medium- the short story.
So that gives you the inferences of why I have so many diverse interests.

127 years of Godrej Industries

Ilham Kadri: There is no better way to start this conversation, and I think we should review the way we do conversations in business. Thank you for that. So let's start with your business. It has a wonderful history.. There are not many companies who can claim a hundred years plus existence. It started with producing locks and is now one of the most successful brands in India. We have that long history coming with you, indeed, with our Ernest Solvey, who started the 1911 Solvay Conferences, which brought together the brightest scientific minds. Can you tell us about the history of your company? Some of the values, because I believe you have to be purposefully led with strong values to thrive and survive throughout centuries so tell us about the values that you still keep from such a long legacy, right?

Nadir Godrej: I wrote a poem about the origins of our group, which I will recite, and then I'll add a little bit about the values which, some of which will come out in the poem. 

Our group began, as you all know
127 years ago.
It started with our illustrious founder
We couldn't have had anyone sounder.
Now Mahatma Gandhi was a friend.
And self-rule then, the future trend.
Ardeshir once just pointed out
That he still had a serious doubt
That profound economic dependence
Might preclude our independence.
A point the Mahatma then conceded
But rather promptly he proceeded
To turn the tables on his friend
And asked him to work to that end.
And so, he started up his venture
Which proved to be some adventure.
Ardeshir’s focus was invention
His single-minded intention
Was proving that he could do it.
He could succeed and he knew it.
For Indian goods could be the best 
Surpass the British by every test.
He scorned the thought of protection.
And chose to prevail by perfection.
And that, he knew he could achieve.
His customers could all perceive
His products were the very best
And constantly put to the test.
To greater heights he would aspire
His safes survived ordeal by fire.
Once, in the harbour, a ship exploded.
Though outer walls of safes eroded,
The inner contents were all intact.
And even when thieves attacked
They could barely pit and dent,
Sometimes, the plates were slightly bent.
But the safes would never break
And so, the thieves could never take
Any goods his safes had secured.
For years and years his fame endured.
There was no limit to his scope.
He worked as hard in tackling soap.
For many years he tried his hand
Until he could well understand
The ins and outs of making soap.
To vegetarians he gave hope.
The other makers were all callow
And made their soaps from lard and tallow,
Not prime but rendered in the street 
With the stink of rotten meat.
But thanks to his determined toil
Fine soap could now be made from oil.
Ardeshir was an inventor-seer
Quite confident, free from fear.
Pirojsha was the one who built
An institution that would not tilt,
Standing straight and standing tall
Answering a higher call.
Both brothers helped build the nation
On the back of innovation.
The growth to which we now aspire.
And hence our future will be bright
If we always keep in sight
That our founder took a noble call
And our founding story says it all.
There was purpose, there were values.
For us this is the greatest news.
We always helped to build the nation
And believed in innovation.
These always helped us in the past.
And they will ensure that we last.
And doing good is very sound
What goes around does come around.
Doing good isn’t just a cost
The gain outweighs all that’s lost.
My grandfather probably saw
These examples and found no flaw.
He bought faraway marshy land.
His critics just couldn't understand.
They felt he had gone quite mad
But today we are very glad.
A township then slowly arose
And this is where our business grows.

Ilham Kadri: Wow, amazing. So innovation, doing innovation and building a nation, doing good is not just a cost. My God, those are big, big, leadership lessons. And, Gandhi having a strong influence on your family, you know, history. I've also heard a great story you told me about how your uncle was an environmentalist. And I'm not surprised because you are, you know, sitting with me as a board member of the World Business Council for Sustainable Development. And you mentioned that he instilled a spirit of sustainability in your family and the company. I have a similar history from my grandma who raised me in Morocco and who told me that we didn't have a luxury to waste so sustainability started in my own home. What did your uncle teach you?

Nadir Godrej: Yes, I stopped, but there's a little bit about my uncle, which was there, which I'll read now. 

My uncle known as SPG
Way back could clearly see
The environment was under stress
Neglect he knew would be a mess.
Our creek side land was reserved
The mangroves there well preserved.
And from my office I gaze out there,
A Mumbai view that's very rare
With greenery all the way
Until you sight New Bombay. (And I’m looking there right now)
And now and then, with friends I float
On a gently moving boat,
With pink Flamingos in full flight,
To my mind a splendid sight.
In saving tigers, he played a role.
The environment was a major goal

Good and green sustainable initiative

Ilham Kadri: Wow. Amazing. And Nadir, this podcast obviously is about how we can create businesses that are both sustainable and profitable, right? And that's the power of the AND. We call it AND is the future. It's so important. Sustainability without profitability in our companies would not work. And profitability without having sustainability at the heart of the business strategy would not work. And you started talking about the good and the green sustainable initiative in your company. And I heard you say that you were able to become much more sustainable while achieving good profits because you were becoming so much more efficient. Can you tell our audience more about that?

Nadir Godrej: Yes. 
It is no longer Climate Change
Within a tolerable range.
A crisis is what it’s about
With fires, floods as well as drought.
Every week a constant blast
Far worse than seen in the past.
In the Godrej Group it is seen
That our goals of Good and Green
Though ambitious will be done
Sustainability can be won.
And so without partiality
Our goal for all's neutrality.
Whether water, carbon or solid waste
By 2030 we’ll make haste
To make our net emissions zero.
Will that make the group a hero?
In 2010 the goal looked tall
But we took a reasoned call
Technology would save the day.
So far it has turned out that way.
As technology takes a leap
Green energy gets very cheap.
Keen observers quickly saw
That Solar also tracks Moore's law.
Whether groundnut shell or bagasse
Our India's full of biomass.
And bamboo now is on the way
It can truly save the day.
There are many paths that we can see
For achieving Carbon neutrality.
But the cheapest way is certainly 
Through energy efficiency.
Real interest rates are rather low
And high returns quickly flow
From any energy saving device.
For business this is very nice.
In India mandated CSR
Can help us go very far.
Of our profits, two percent 
Is required to be spent!
Multiple benefits is what one sees
With water projects or growing trees.
Good livelihoods are created
Our carbon emissions are abated.
Trees planted at a river’s source
Maintain the flow throughout its course.
So many benefits we can see:
The preservation of biodiversity,
Different species can be tried.
Useful products can be supplied
Like biomass or edible fruits
And yet the trunk and the roots
Can sequester carbon, clean the air,
So while we decarbonise
Why not also monetize?

Green chemistry

Ilham Kadri: Lovely decarbonize and monetize. And you're right, you talk about green energy becoming a cheaper source of new fuel biomass and funny you say, I'm not sure we're gonna become a hero, but what I'm sure is that you are becoming a role model. And I've often, often said, Nadir, that while chemistry has been part of the problem, that's what I was told in 2019 when I relocated from the US to Europe. I believe, but I'm biased. I'm a chemist. I'm a scientist, that chemistry is also part of the solution, as it enables so many sustainable solutions that the world needs, like EV batteries, green hydrogen, lightweight for airplanes, for clean mobility cars, and so on. You are a chemical engineer by training. I've often heard you talk about that green chemistry you just talked about. So I'm sure you've got many examples of this in your own business too, right? Can you tell us more?

Nadir Godrej: Yes, I can. And I would like to state that we entered the chemical business because we were soap makers. And my father did his Ph. D. in Germany, actually studied in Nazi Germany and had to leave in 1939 and come back in 1949 to finish his Ph. D. And, he did his thesis on making soap directly from fatty acids.

As a result, we started the fatty acid industry in India. And fatty acids are made from vegetable oils. So, they have a very sustainable source, they're not a petrochemical, and, later on he tried to make alpha orophanes out of fatty alcohols made from fatty acids. So, green raw materials were very much part of our chemical history. 

About green chemistry, I'd like to say that 
Green Chemistry's always been there 
But all the same it's only fair
To state that now it's to the fore
And the emphasis is much more. 
12 principles have shown the way.
Green Chemistry grows day by day.
The cause by now would have been lost
Had we always incurred cost.
While planet saving led the way
Now we know that it can pay.
Harmful waste is very bad
But any waste is very sad.
For after all, all waste is lost
And so indeed unneeded cost.
For saving waste it's always nice
To have our reactions quite precise.
Much progress we clearly see
With nano and biotechnology.
Of course Green Chemistry is clean
But it pays well because it's lean!
Crop yields are all on the rise
And so it's not a big surprise
Natural feedstocks are catching on
The fossil way may soon be gone.
Surely every chemist knows 
Of oil, starch and cellulose.
We've used sucrose and ethanol
And started using glycerol.
But now that in the recent days
We've made progress with cellulase, 
Cheap simple sugars can lead the way
The dawning of a glorious day.
And soon we'll make a giant leap
As green energy gets very cheap.
We can go where it's stranded
Or where power can't be landed.
Iceland, the Sahara come to mind.
Other distant places we could find.
We could make methanol from CO2
And Formic or Oxalic Acid too.
This chemistry would be very clean
And to my mind truly green.
This may seem a fantasy
But in good time success we’ll see.

How poetry heightens the emotion

Ilham Kadri: Well, to our audience, this is not the only time that Nadir, instead of making a speech or answering a question, he often recites poetry while giving the answers. And at the World Economic Forum this year, instead of presenting a speech, you read out one of your poems instead. Do you feel, Nadir, that poetry, in a way, touches the heart, connects our, you know, intellect, the rational I feel that you heightened probably the emotion. Do you feel you help to move people to make the changes we need them to do by using poetry?
Nadir Godrej: I think so, people seem to enjoy it. It's a little bit unusual, the message really sinks in because they're listening. And as you said, it also appeals to the heart. So you, you have to make a good case for the mind, but you have to make a good case for the heart as well.

Job training program at Godrej Industries

Ilham Kadri: And that's how you change cultures, right? In companies or society is when you reach the hearts. And you make that bonding, human bonding, you know, real through the dialogue. And of course, sustainability is also about people. And I loved hearing about your training program at Godrej, where you are providing education to one million people to help them increase their income and quality of life. Can you tell us more about that?

Nadir Godrej: Yes I'm going to read a little bit of a poem. I read out at the WBCSD, my first WBCSD meeting in Paris, along with the COP that year. And, so this was of course in 2015. 

In training we will play a role
A million people is our goal.
You will agree that is plenty
And we'll do it all by 2020.
For society we do our bit
But we also benefit.
Farmers gain from better yield
And buy our products for the field.
Beauticians gain a livelihood
As good practices are understood.
Occasionally they would select
Our products and we could elect
To co-create what customers need
Together we would all succeed

So we try to use our training program to help society as well as to help the business. We strongly believe in Michael Porter's idea of shared value. You help society while you help the business. As you pointed out, it's and, and. It's not either, or.

Ilham Kadri: Yeah. And I love it. It's sharing the value creation with all and creating it for all. And that's a mantra, your role model for all of us. And thank you for that. Have you reached your million people goal by 2020?

Nadir Godrej: Yes, we've already reached it.

Advice for leaders to become more sustainable

Ilham Kadri: Yeah, it's amazing. Congratulations. And it has been obviously always a pleasure. I got to know you more at the WBCSD, the World Business Council for Sustainable Development, where we ensure with all the stakeholders in the room, around the table, more than 350 companies in this beautiful association, nonprofit association, to really take action to limit the climate crisis, restore nature, and tackle inequality and to treat all the three with equal importance. And a lot of what we are doing is instilling that sustainable leadership. What advice, Nadir, would you give to the young people listening to us? 

Nadir Godrej: Right, first of all, I would like to stress that preventing climate change is already cheaper than adapting to climate change. So our focus should be on prevention. Of course, until we prevent, we have to adapt, but we should focus as much as possible on prevention. It seems like a very heavy cost, but there's, it's an affordable cost if there is a level playing field.

So it's very important to have a level playing field for business and associations like WBCSD need to work to have a level playing field because with a level playing field, it will be profitable for everyone to prevent climate change. That being said, we have to look for win-wins. We have to look for energy efficiency devices. We have to look for new technologies. New technologies are constantly coming and young people should focus on new technologies because that's the way to solve it. New kinds of biomass, new kinds of energy efficient solutions, new kinds of nuclear power can all help us to overcome these problems. And,so young people can focus on innovation, on using, reducing carbon emissions in their personal life. Though a lot, a lot can be done by businesses and needs to be done by businesses. And a lot needs to be done by government in ensuring a level playing field.

Empathy and kindness in business

Ilham Kadri: Yeah. And the level playing field is, is, is so important, right? So I think it's great advice. Speaking of strong leadership, I've often heard you talk about empathy in business, which I really like. And this was not frankly taught to me. As a student or young professional in the Western world, I learned it probably in Africa, in Morocco, where I grew up. Empathy is part of our society and I can relate to this when I visit India. I feel, you know, it connects me to my own culture. And I always say that leaders who don't have empathy are going to fail. People also speak of you warmly, around you and within in our small ecosystem of business and the chemical industry world. You have a reputation for being simply a kind person, which big with a big K, a really a kind person. How important is empathy and kindness in your leadership?

Nadir Godrej: For me, it's very important. And I think I got the original message from my mother. She was a teacher. She had a very unusual kind of classroom. I used to go to her classes sometimes and she would give assignments at the beginning of the week and the children were free to do them at any time. Her class was an extremely noisy class.

The children were running around all over the classroom, yet they got all their work done. They could ask each other for help, or they could come to my mother for help. As long as they finished the tasks at the end of the week, she was happy. So they learned how to work on their own, they learned how to get on with people, and there was nobody directing them.

So I always feel that people should be self motivated, A leader is not a military leader. He's more like a teacher of the kind of my mother was. That's how I feel. And I've always felt that way. And it actually works in life. 

When I was in college, there was a Jesuit psychologist. It was St. Xavier's College, run by Jesuits. He was a psychologist and he did a psychological test. And on his test, I scored zero for aggression. So he called me in and he said he was very worried. He says you have zero aggression. How will you survive in life? Fortunately, I like to say maybe because I was a little bit privileged or maybe because nobody tried to bully me. I actually survived very well, and I've always found that when you're kind, people reciprocate, and you don't have to worry that you're not tough.

Favorite poets

Ilham Kadri: Yeah, absolutely. And I love it. What a lesson again. 

And I can go on with this conversation for long, but it's getting almost to an end. Maybe to finish with, who, do you have a favorite poet? I'm sure there are many on your bookcase and in your, in your office but who is your favorite poet, if there is any, and can you recite one of your favorite poems for our audience?

Nadir Godrej: Okay, I have quite a few favorite poems, including some French poets, like Apollinaire, Baudelaire, and the English poets Byron, Shelley and, one Indian poet, who I happen to know and who influenced me a lot is Vikram Seth. And when I was studying Russian, I was asked to that we were going to have a celebration for Pushkin's anniversary.

And I was asked to make a speech and I just read an article about how Pushkin's Eugene Onegin had influenced Vikram Seth to write Golden Gate, a poem that he, a novel that he wrote in poetry using Pushkin sonnets. A Pushkin sonnet is an original sonnet that Pushkin used in Eugene Onegin, and so I will recite a poem that I wrote for Vikram Seth when he visited Vikhroli, describing, I'm going to only read an extract of the poem, describing a trip we did around Bombay and it's written in Pushkin sonnets. 

This audience is most delighted
That Vikram Seth is here today.
This migrating bird's not been sighted
Here before but stumbled in this way.
Of course we mustn't fail to mention
That this event's not by intention.
We'll spare him any inflicted pain
If Bachi happened to complain.
You see, he was supposed to be attending another literary fest and not doing anything else. That's why I wrote this bit. 
But 
When invited to a LitFest dinner
By Pheroza I traipsed downstairs
We stood in the heat, there were few chairs. 
The evening proved to be a winner
As Sudha, Vikram and I conversed
But in literature we weren't immersed.
Sudha of course was so  inclined
But Vikram's interests are so wide
That though for literature she pined
A theorem's proof was supplied.
Now Maths makes Vikram quite excited
And hearing this I swiftly cited
"Maths for Poets" so apropos!
Now little did dear Sudha know
That Platonic Solids would be discussed.
But Vikram mentioned there were just five
That's when I challenged him to strive
For proof. Sudha must have cussed!
But I of course just thanked Fate
That I had met a true soulmate.

Ilham Kadri: Well, bravo, bravo, and yeah. It's beautiful and perfect. And there is no other way. And this is a perfect way to end this podcast. And by the way, for our audience, I failed to say that you speak so many languages, right? Including, I guess, Russian. French, I know, because we spoke French

Nadir Godrej: Yes,

Ilham Kadri: On our ride.

Nadir Godrej: Russian I've forgotten now, but I did speak it at one time, and that's how it got me to get to know Vikram Seth.

Ilham Kadri: Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you so much, Nadir. Thank you for this fabulous, inspiring, nourishing, I mean, it's a soul nourishing conversation. And I think you, just hearing you, engaging with you, gives me a sense of hope, a sense of, you know, inspiration that's the best is yet to come you taught us today about the power of words and poetry to inspire us, to inspire leaders, to inspire the youth to do the right thing on business, on sustainability and on humanity, right? And thank you for sharing your beautiful poetry and for your great leadership lessons with us today. You are a role model. Thank you, Nadir.

Nadir Godrej: Thank you very much, Ilham. Thank you for having me. It was delightful.